From Zero to Salmon – sort of

This transcript was generated using AI and may contain minor errors.

Richard Prideaux: Coming up on Fish and Game.

Sam Turner: Which was a brilliant way to just learn, because at first Matey told me it looked like I was trying to whip a horse rather than actually cast a fly.

Jake Woolf: I didn't know Nymph was a fly and I thought it was something else. I thought it was something out of a Shakespearean novel.

Avian Sandercock: I mean, flies catch more fishermen than fish and just slowly get into it.

Sam Turner: Now Jake, I'm not going to come on here and start dishing out relationship advice, but how angry is Mrs Wolf that you just won a fishing holiday in a charity auction?

Jake Woolf: She is absolutely blown away. She is so excited to be going to Scotland for three days next year. She can't wait.

Avian Sandercock: Is she a teen fisher person?

Jake Woolf: I'm having to negotiate sleeping arrangements right now. So I am at that point where I have looked into where we're going and found horse riding, mountain biking, walking, falconry and everything in the surrounding area. So I think I've pulled off an absolute Ark to triumph lads. I really do. I think I've done all right here. Not only have I made it romantic, she can bring friends as well because it's a pretty good prize. So yeah, I'm okay. I'm okay. Didn't help you two winding it up the other week. So you two are in the doghouse, quite frankly.

Avian Sandercock: I don't think we can repeat her initial delight at knowing that you were number one in the auction.

Jake Woolf: Especially not with an audio medium. So I should really explain what I've done, shouldn't I, chaps? That would make it a lot easier for everyone listening.

Sam Turner: What have you got for your money?

Jake Woolf: No, you two know. And you two have wound my wife up a lot. So for everyone listening, I entered a bid onto the Eat Wild charity auction, which finished on Sunday, the 30th of August. And I was the lucky bid, winning bid to three days on the Kinkel Beat, if I get that right, on the River Urn for three days, 4 rods a day. So the way I look at it is that's 12 rods over 3 days. There's some handy invites there, isn't there?

Sam Turner: And is that salmon?

Jake Woolf: You 2 have changed, haven't you, now all of a sudden? So, yes, that's Sam. Sam, it is sea trout and salmon. So, chaps, I was going to say jumped off at the deep end.

Avian Sandercock: You've never handled a hot fly rod before and you're going straight for Scottish River, Salmon and Sea Trail.

Jake Woolf: You all know me well enough that I'm in for a penny in for a penny.

Sam Turner: I was going to say, would we expect Jake to do it in any other way?

Jake Woolf: Absolutely not. So it's really exciting. But gentlemen, I need some help.

Sam Turner: Okay.

Avian Sandercock: Yes. Why have you come to us then? I mean, bunch of amateurs over here. So you've literally never ever cast a fly in anger at all, ever.

Jake Woolf: I had my first go Monday afternoon.

Avian Sandercock: Out on the lawn. Right. And I've been given a rod by a very good friend of ours, a reel and some equipment.

Jake Woolf: And then I guess like London buses, another friend heard about this as well and brought me a load more fishing stuff as well.

Sam Turner: Because that's because like London, like London buses, they all know you've got 4 rods on that day.

Jake Woolf: All they're doing is taking stuff out of their lockups so their wives don't find it.

Avian Sandercock: I know. We'll get to this, but this is the problem with fly fishing. Once it. gets into you rather than you get into it. You will end up with bags and cupboards full of things you bought that were going to improve your fishing no end that just sit in the cupboard until somebody you know starts and you can donate it to them. But Sam, cracking on, we're talking about fly fishing, but what is fly fishing? What's it all about?

Sam Turner: So fly fishing is a style of fishing that uses a lightweight artificial lure called a fly, obviously, which is designed to imitate insects or small prey. and you cast using a specialized, it's a specialized weighted line and obviously a special rod rather than relying on the weight of the bait like you would in traditional fishing.

Avian Sandercock: Because I mean that's the key problem, isn't it? That whilst often fish are in under your feet, quite often they're sort of out at distance. And traditional rod and line fishing, you'd attach some kind of a weight and like a pendulum, you'd chuck it out there and the fine line would follow it.

Sam Turner: Drop a spinner in and that's it, yeah.

Avian Sandercock: You haven't got a weight with fly fishing, so the line...

Sam Turner: The line itself is the weight and it's how you cast.

Jake Woolf: So you're imitating a fly on top of the water. Now I understand it.

Avian Sandercock: Hang on, hang on. Running and walking, Joe, keep running and walking sometimes.

Jake Woolf: But I'm getting a bit confused here because aren't these both types of sucky fish?

Avian Sandercock: They can be bitey fish, depends how big you are.

Jake Woolf: There we go. So this is the level we're going to have to go. So bear with me. Right. So what fish are we going for here? We're obviously going for sea trout and we're going for salmon. Can we catch anything else on the fly?

Avian Sandercock: Yeah, absolutely. Depends what's in the river, obviously. But fly fishing, you can fly fish in lakes and ponds and streams and reservoirs and big rivers and in the sea and on the shore and off a boat and all sorts. So, you know, in freshwater fishing in the UK, you're predominantly targeting fish that will be eating live prey. So insects, insect larvae, possibly small fish, things on the bottom, moving around things in the mid water, things in the top water and things on the surface. And fish will do different things at different times of the day and different types of the year, depending on what food's available, what they fancy. So part of what you're doing is trying to make sure that the bit of feather and fluff on the end of your line is attractive to what the fish are feeding on at that particular moment.

Sam Turner: Yeah.

Jake Woolf: Tell me the history. What's a history for fly fishing? There must be some really cool fly fishing history. When did it first start? It is, isn't it?

Sam Turner: There was a brief history of fly fishing and a Roman era thing that I'm now looking at and attempting to read. Roman era Macedonian anglers described by That almost, I feel like I'm being stitched up because that says Alianus. That's close enough. That's close enough.

Jake Woolf: Go for it.

Sam Turner: Around 200 AD through to Dame Julia Benners, 1496.

Jake Woolf: Okay, so it has been going for a rather long time.

Avian Sandercock: It's probably been going long, yeah, much longer than that. I think the Macedonian. anglers were doing it and they just happened to be a Roman wandering past who wrote it down.

Sam Turner: Do we think they were probably trying to imitate a fly on the water, but were they probably weren't casting in the same way that we are now, were they?

Avian Sandercock: No, I think it's still practiced in Scotland and Ireland. It's the technique called dapping. where you'll use very long rods with a fixed piece of line on the end and you hold it and it just dances in the top of the water. And from reading about this, I think the guys who the Romans were writing about, they had a little bit of red wool or red rag on the end of a line that was just attracting the fish or encouraging them to flash at it and take. All lures basically try and imitate or create the attack response in predatory fish. And the flies are, how do you get, if the fish you're trying to catch to eat are feeding on something that's only a couple of millimetres long, that's on the surface, how do you get that out there at that sort of range to get yourself amongst the fish? And I think it wasn't until metal work came in and people started using spools and reels to, hold your line on to let the fish run and give you the chance to get out to them. It was just sort of a long pole with a bit of silk thread or horse hair or something attached. But, things have come on a hell of a long way since then. And now we're, where we are with technical lines and presentation techniques and all the rest of it.

Sam Turner: So you're a bit more nerdy on this than I am, Ave.

Avian Sandercock: Me, you nerdy, don't be dumb.

Sam Turner: Of course you are, of course you are. So we've got dry flies, which is obviously where you're casting out and a dry fly will always just land on the surface, stay on the surface. And then nymphs will land and then sink and be in that top layer of water as a look.

Avian Sandercock: Yeah, I mean, nymphs will cover, depending on the weight of the nymph, they will cover sort of up in the top bit of the water and right the way down but and then you've got other flies that'll sink to the bottom and so there's you have to imagine the depth of the water potentially fish will feed at all levels. How's that going into your head, Jake? Are we going too fast?

Jake Woolf: Yeah, okay, right. So we've had dry flights, we've had nymphs. I didn't know nymph was a fly and I thought it was something else. I thought it was something out of a Shakespearean novel or something like that. Diaphanous nymphs.

Avian Sandercock: Now unfortunately, they're the little crunchy bugs that swim in the water.

Jake Woolf: So basically you're replicating the feed cycle of an insect or a food source to sea trout and salmon. Let's keep it for those two fish now.

Avian Sandercock: Is that what we're doing? No, unfortunately not. Let's keep it simple because I think we need to get you started. And obviously anyone else out there who's thinking about starting and then keep it, let's keep it to trout just to begin with because trout actually do eat things when they're in fresh water. Right. So you are imitating what they're feeding on when you're there. Salmon and sea trout are different. I think we'll come on to that, won't we, Sam?

Jake Woolf: Yeah, right. But chaps, look, I know that you guys have got some pretty good experience.

Avian Sandercock: I've got good experience standing on a bank whipping the arm around and occasionally.

Jake Woolf: But why fly fishing? Yeah, there you go. What is it that makes this so much fun? Because you two are oozing For me, it is a complete escape. Yeah, really.

Sam Turner: It is that you, I think because you have to concentrate on your cast, where you're casting, what's around you, the environment, like we say when you're looking at trout, you're looking at what bugs are around so that you can kind of imitate those and you're changing flies and you're doing all these different things. and you just completely forget about everything else that's going on in life and you just go and stand in a river and cast. And the amount of casting I've done compared to the amount of fish I've caught is a really, really bad statistic. But that is the main reason I, it was one of those. I wanted to get into fly fishing probably because I want to do a McNabb at some point in my life. And I thought I need to be able to cast a fly to be able to catch the salmon to complete a McNabb. But actually on that journey of learning fly fishing, you learn that you can just stand there and escape everything and just be really involved in something. But also, it's the only time I've seen a kingfisher go whizzing past my head was when I was out with a fly rod and just bits like that. It's, yeah, it's amazing to be fair.

Jake Woolf: And how is it different from, let's say, carp or angling, bass fishing?

Avian Sandercock: I think.

Jake Woolf: How is it different?

Avian Sandercock: I mean, all fishing really is trying to outsmart a wild animal in an alien environment to ourselves.

Sam Turner: Yeah.

Avian Sandercock: You know, I think we've said before, you can walk through past a lake, past a river and it's wet on the top and that's pretty much all you see. The difference, I guess, between fly fishing and let's say carp fishing is Fly fishing tends to be more active. It's more of a puzzle. I mean, carp fishing is very technical, highly enjoyable, and a different mentality. For me personally, it's more of a siege mentality. You're sort of using the environment. Pretty much everything is either hard on the bottom or hard on the surface. And you set out your feeding pattern and put baits down and try and encourage the fish in. Whereas I think with fly fishing on lakes and on rivers, you are, it's more hunting. You are trying to intercept fish or find fish where they are and encourage them to eat this artificial thing.

Sam Turner: When you're looking for the fish and you're trying to, you know, almost like with track, you're trying to drop the fly on its head so that it sees it and goes, oh, delicious, and comes up for it. You know, it's almost, it's like a target sport at the same time.

Avian Sandercock: And it is very much at its core, making the art of catching a fish about as hard as it can possibly get.

Jake Woolf: But I mean, Sam, you've just kind of mentioned about your, dare I say, Zen moment with seeing the Kingfisher and being a bit into nature at the same time as being on a river. But yeah, Abe, you're slightly kind of indulging in a pastime that I'm going to say makes the outcome harder to achieve by the sounds of things. Is that right?

Avian Sandercock: Yes, and no. I think, you know, you could go to a river and stuff it full of worms and catch trout on a hook with a worm on it.

Jake Woolf: Okay.

Avian Sandercock: It kind of goes back to the 19th century where dry fly fishing became this sort of almost religious experience. There was a chap called Halford who set out this treatise on how to fish for trout. I don't know much about Halford because I've never been a purist trout fisher, but I think his whole point was you're trying to present to a rising fish. So the purest form of trout fishing is you're alone on a chalk stream, you are sort of in the environment, you're at one with the environment, your observation skills spot a fish that is actively feeding, you try and identify what it's feeding on, You look in your collection of flies, you match what it's eating, and you present that fly as delicately and as perfectly as you possibly can to encourage that very wily wild animal to accept your imitation as the real thing.

Jake Woolf: So you're matching the hatch, I guess. Is that the right way of saying it?

Avian Sandercock: Like we said right at the start, you're trying to put in front of a hunting fish a representation of what it's already chosen to feed on that particular minute and it can switch on and off quickly as that.

Jake Woolf: And you said let's concentrate on trout, but I was told, now I don't know if this is true and I'm hoping you taps can tell me this, that when you're salmon fishing in the pods of salmon coming up river from the sea into the river, they're not actually feeding. Am I right in saying that you actually aggravate a salmon and then one salmon will bump another salmon and then it will swim forward and it will see something and in anger it chomps on the fly and then ***** off or is that a simplified version?

Avian Sandercock: That seems to be the thinking that there's sort of a territorial element to it that you're invading space with something flashy and bright. Having said that, you know, lots of boys go out there and catch a lot of salmon with prawns and worms.

Sam Turner: So I guess a fish has got to feed, hasn't it?

Jake Woolf: Has got to feed, but do the salmon switch off feeding when they enter the rivers to head up to the spawning grounds? So that's when they stop and that's their end of their cycle, isn't it? Well, no, they don't return out.

Avian Sandercock: It depends on the species. Some do, some don't.

Jake Woolf: Okay. So yeah, I'm just going from what I've... heard on an actually kind of thing.

Avian Sandercock: So the one you'll be sort of beating yourself to death to try and catch will be the Atlantic salmon. And they tend not to feed as a general rule when they're in the river. They're there just for sex and procreation. But they will, once that's done, the mucky business is dealt with, they'll turn around and go back to the sea.

Jake Woolf: Right, okay. Off the top of your head, this will be maybe a question you can't answer. How many different salmon, salmonoids, breeds of salmon are there?

Avian Sandercock: I think the big ones, Atlantic salmon are sort of Eastern Hemisphere, so Austin into Europe, in Canada and the West Coast of the US. You'll have Kings, Coho, Red, and I think one or two others. So, there are a few others. Basically, the salmon you get in a can isn't the Atlantic salmon.

Sam Turner: No.

Avian Sandercock: That'll be the pinks. No.

Sam Turner: Have you ever had a have you ever had a salmon on a line, though?

Avian Sandercock: Twice.

Sam Turner: What's that? Because I've only ever had small trout. And I mean, when you cast and you do catch one, or you get a bite at least, and you...

Avian Sandercock: It's not a bite, Dibble. It's a pull.

Sam Turner: Pull.

Avian Sandercock: The biggest book on fishing you'll get is all the words.

Sam Turner: Yeah, that's the trouble, isn't it? Yeah. It all gets a bit weird, doesn't it?

Avian Sandercock: I think it does, yes.

Sam Turner: Yeah. Let's bring it away from weird. That wonderful feeling you get when you've got a pull on the line, if you wish to call it that. What's the difference when you're on salmon compared to trout? Is that a real different feeling?

Avian Sandercock: It is. I think there's a couple of layers to it. The first layer is it's quite infrequent. So you can have spent a week casting pools and working a river and up and down and up and down. And when it happens, it's usually when you've done your worst cast or you least expect it or you think it's a leaf and it's just electric. I mean, the good thing for you, Jake, is getting... used to the feel of it on a trout lake, there's a lot of similarities. The way they'll take, it's quite a ****** it's not like a very delicate, gentle thing. But basically, when the line tightens on a salmon, because it's an oceanic fish, it's traveled thousands of miles, it's beaten the rapids, it's fit as hell, and it will really just turn the world upside down. It's quite magical.

Jake Woolf: So I've already cast it out and I've had a practice. I've had a flick out with, I've had a bit of wool, not baling twine, but a bit of hessian sack actually. And we were just casting out.

Avian Sandercock: Did you put that on to start with or did that snag out of the person behind you skirt?

Sam Turner: Hessian skirt.

Avian Sandercock: We all wear potato shacks down here. It's winter.

Jake Woolf: You're talking about your nymphs again. Right, but what I've done is I've pulled my line away and I'm casting away now. And then as I'm casting out, I'm feeding line back through my hand and then I'm taking it back to about, let's say, if we're 12, about 11 o'clock behind, holding it there and then whipping it forward. Okay. And then when it gets to the end of that line, I've been on a lawn, right? Give me the feels, like how am I feeling?

Avian Sandercock: This is, I mean, again, you were asking earlier, what's the attraction of fly fishing and a lot of it, you know, if you're not catching, you can work on your cast. And if you are catching, you can improve your cast. And casting is in its essence, very, very simple. So basically the weight is built into the line and you're just using momentum to push the line out behind you, which will bend the rod behind you and that's known as loading the rod. And basically like a spring, you've got all of the energy is stored in the rod and in the line. And then it's timing. The absolute key in the bit I can never get right with fly fishing is the timing. If your timing is perfect, it's a bit like hitting a golf ball. Everything works and it shoots forwards and it lands perfectly on the water and you catch a fish and it's marvellous. But there are so many stages within that and it's one of those things that can drive beginners mental And I think the biggest mistake is trying to use power and the power doesn't come from you, the power comes from the timing.

Sam Turner: Yeah, but when you do get that, I've been working on a double haul, which I don't know if we're gonna go into that or not, but I've been working on that. And when you get that right and that fly line goes out and then it just pulls all the stuff that you've got spooled out below you as well into a lovely line and you get that perfect cast, it's just awesome. It is one in 10 that does it, but it's pretty.

Avian Sandercock: And even if you don't catch a fish, you can admire the cast you've just made and feel wonderful. But I think, Jake, for a beginner like yourself and for anyone else out there is don't worry about distance. Don't try and use your strength to do it. The minute you start doing that, it all goes horribly wrong and you get knots and tangles and frustrated. And this is why I think for most beginners, and especially for you, if you were to go straight to a Scottish river and try and catch salmon, It's almost like getting your provisional license and then jumping in an F1 car. There's too much going on. You need to get the muscle memory going and get an understanding of what the fly rod does. It's going to be different with a salmon rod. But the basics are still there. It's all timing, it's presentation, it's not trying to overstretch and get too far.

Sam Turner: So if we're on basics, then what do we, Jake's obviously been gifted a couple of rods very nicely, but what do we need in a basic setup?

Avian Sandercock: I think you'd start off for basic setup is hat and glasses.

Sam Turner: Yeah.

Avian Sandercock: Straight away. Polarised. If you can afford them, they are exceptionally valuable. But to start with, don't worry about it. It's more about you've basically got a very sharp needle-pointed hook waving around in the air that's going backwards and forwards past your face. So safety. Just safety. We've all had a hook clatter off your glasses and It makes you think. So that's your basics. But basically all you need is a rod, a fly rod, a fly reel, which is pretty much a spool that just holds your line. It's not like other types of fishing where you wind in and wind out and cast from the spool. You need a fly fishing line and that's, it's a bit like clothesline. It's got that weight built into it. And then obviously if you've got, if you can imagine a clothesline in the water is going to be pretty obvious to a fish. So on the end of that fly line, you then have a finer bit of nylon or what have you. that's known as your leader or your tippet. And that's what will hold the hook, the fly on the other end, on the end of that.

Sam Turner: And that's usually the length, isn't the tippet the length of the rod that you're using? Am I right in saying that?

Avian Sandercock: It's a good shout. Nine foot rod, 9 foot leader. That's a pretty good start.

Jake Woolf: It's how you do it. So when I'm, we're really going to get in. I have so many questions. So, and they, you know me, they're going to jig around a bit. If I'm setting up my line and my leader, what's a rule of thumb about before you start? Is there a rule of thumb?

Avian Sandercock: Length of rod, length of leader. It's a good place to start.

Jake Woolf: Perfect.

Avian Sandercock: The longer the leader, the more difficult it becomes to control. The shorter the leader, the more difficult it is to fox the fish because your washing line, fly line is likely to be a bit too close to them. So that's a bloody good place to start. Knife foot rod, knife foot leader.

Jake Woolf: So I've got on my reel now is almost a luminous yellow.

Sam Turner: Yeah.

Jake Woolf: But I've seen different colours. Do they attract the fish? Is there anything to the fish? There's nothing.

Sam Turner: Hopefully the fish will never see your actual fly line. They'll only ever see the fly. And if you land the fly properly, they won't see the tippet or the leader land in the water and they'll just see the fly land and that's when they'll go for it. If they see a long clothesline of stuff land in a heap with a fly in the middle, they'll just completely ignore that, I think.

Avian Sandercock: They might laugh.

Sam Turner: But why, I mean, but that does beg the question. We're trying to help you out here, Jake, as well as listeners that want to get into this. Why do you want to be laughed at by a fish?

Jake Woolf: Because you lot do and it looks like it's really good fun. No, I'll be perfectly honest. I was looking at ways to do more with the family. So I as you all know, heavily into my gun dogs and into shooting, it can be a bit of a strain on the family structure. And I wanted to do something where all of us started at zero. So if I take a rugby ball and play with Tobes, I've got 35 years of a bit longer actually, but I've got a lot, a lot of years, kicking a ball, playing cricket. It's stuff that you share down to your children, but all four, five of us, including Joe, do you know what? It's that start point where we all start at 0 and that has been the most fun.

Avian Sandercock: Are you prepared for the well-known made-up fact that generally holds true that ladies are generally far better fly fishers than chaps? I really hope so.

Jake Woolf: And do you see how I've just dropped my voice slightly because in case Laura hears this, it's because if Laura gets into this, she might drop the horses. She'll never drop the horses, but it does mean that it's an easier way to get permission. You've dropped your voice.

Sam Turner: Does that mean that Mrs. Wolf doesn't listen to your podcasts, Jake.

Jake Woolf: Absolutely not. And she's got to listen to this sort of like a 365 thing. But, you know, joking aside, I genuinely wanted something to do with the family that we could all enjoy time together because there aren't many more years, where the children are going to be at home. Toby's 10, he's 11 in a few weeks time. it's that thing where he's seven years off from being 18 and going away and Joe's 28 and it brings him back into the fold on the family as well. So I really am thinking that's why I've got into it, Sam. So yeah, I'm assuming it's a family kind of pastime. Would you all go to the rivers and go up there for weeks or explain, would you go solitary? Or would you take your wife and children and have a week's holiday up in Scotland or down in Devon or wherever these wonderful rules?

Sam Turner: I always go solitary at the moment, but I think when my kids are older, I'd like to take them. And it would also be good fun to go with a load of mates, Jake. So if you know anyone that's potentially got...

Avian Sandercock: I mean, if anyone had to provide them, I would trip to Scotland with three spare rods.

Sam Turner: Three days, 4 rods, something like that. It would be...

Jake Woolf: It's amazing how many friends just appear when they hear. that there is some, I didn't know this. I knew it was when shooting was, but now fishing. It's like I've got a new phone book.

Sam Turner: We'll probably delve into the cost of it soon, but I remember when I was, you know, I had one very young child. I went up, I was up in Scotland anyway, and I can't remember what river it was, but it was the Dunoon Angling Society. I went to the local paint shop, gave me a tenner for my day ticket. There wasn't any, there hadn't been much rain, there was no water in the river. I was highly unlikely to catch anything. But just paying that 10 quid to go and stand in that beat for the day, set up a little tent by the side of the river that my daughter was in and just stood in the water casting. It was just unreal. And it's so much cheaper than other things that we do.

Avian Sandercock: Yeah, I think for kids it's a wonderful way to introduce into wild places and teach them a bit of patience. And, however you catch your first fish, it's magical. And again, I think it's that primal thing that you've taken something alive and beautiful out of an alien environment.

Sam Turner: Yeah.

Avian Sandercock: But I think, you know, if you're looking at fly fishing, I'm the same as Sam. I tend to take myself off, occasionally go with a mate and we'll go to a small river or a lake and catch some trout. But as you've seen, you've just come back from your Devon camping trip. There are lots of places that will have a trout lake and lodges and camping and bits like that, right up to the other end where, big groups of people go to, a lodge or a house in Scotland and Ireland, what have you, and spend the week not catching salmon. It's everything. You know, you can do it pretty much any way you want.

Sam Turner: So Jake's got his rod. Jake's got his rod. What else does he need to properly get started?

Avian Sandercock: First thing he's going to need is, in England anyway, and Wales, you'll need a license. So it's important, even if you're just going for the day, even if you're just practicing, you'll need an environment agency rod license. You can get those online pretty easily and they're not much money. You're going to need your rod and reel, line and leader, hat and glasses, take a landing net because hope springs eternal. And it's always a good idea to have a pair of snips or some nail scissors because you'll be trimming line and also something to get the hook out of the fish's mouth, especially if you want to put it back in again. And something like a cheap pair of artery forceps are perfect for that. You won't need a chair because you'll be walking around all day. And a book of knots would be a damn good idea as well.

Sam Turner: There's probably an app for that now, isn't there?

Avian Sandercock: Well, it's probably going to be raining or you drop your phone in the pond.

Sam Turner: Yeah, that's true.

Avian Sandercock: But no, I mean, if you're tying knots with nylon, there are specific knots that you have to do because there's nothing worse than hooking a fish and then it coming off because you tied a terrible knot.

Sam Turner: Yeah, there are a couple of basic ones that are fairly straightforward to do. I used to do that one where you put it through and then you do six or seven round the outsides and then down through the middle loosely and then just pull it all tight, snip the end off. Yeah, then that's done.

Jake Woolf: So guys, this is all, I'm going to say it's fairly up here right now. I'm struggling a bit here. We've had a bit on trout. We've had a bit on the salmon. But guys, it's a bit of a scramble up here. What are we doing? Help me out.

Sam Turner: So you're on a salmon day, so you probably want to know more about the differences between trout fishing and salmon fishing, I guess.

Jake Woolf: Yes, please. That's what I need to find out is those differences, please. How do I get there?

Sam Turner: So your rod's going to be different between trout and salmon?

Jake Woolf: Why?

Sam Turner: Trout, you'll be doing a lot of single-handed casting, which will be absolutely fine. When you get up to salmon, you'll be double-handed spay casting.

Jake Woolf: Okay. single-handed, double-handed. It's as simple as it sounds, Sam, that it is just one hand and then the other hand's free.

Sam Turner: The other hand, I've not done double-hand stuff. The other hand isn't free necessarily when you're single-handed because you're, you know, if you're right-hand casting, you're using your left hand to sort out your line. When you get to bigger rivers, you need bigger rods and you're going to be Bigger rivers, bigger rods.

Jake Woolf: Okay, so that's a rule of thumb.

Avian Sandercock: We'll come to it in a minute, but I think to get you started and get a feel for it, you know, a smallish lake that's got trout in it will get you into the feel of what's going on. And really what we need to get you to do is to get started and to sort of move you up, get ready for your sea trout and salmon trip. Your big thing, you know, we're talking about single hand and double hand rods. You know, a trout rod will be As we said, about 9 foot, you'll hold it in your dominant hand, left or right. And generally that's the only hand that will touch the rod. The rest of it is for line control. And most of the little lakes you'll fish on, they've trimmed the trees behind so you can cast overhead. So basically that means you lift the rod up, the line goes out behind you like you've done on the lawn and then goes out onto the lake. When you get up to the rivers, and especially the Scottish salmon rivers, they're big, they're powerful. but often you're wading and you've got shrubbery in behind you. So you can't.

Jake Woolf: Tell me what is an, what is, so you've just mentioned overhead, but I've heard the word spay and a spay cast. What's one of those?

Avian Sandercock: When you're in a river and you've got shrubbery behind you, it's a very expensive way of making it look like a Christmas tree behind you. So your spade cast, basically you cannot overhead cast if you've got trees behind you. Okay. And it's very difficult to overhead cast with a long heavy rod. I mean, a double-handed rod could be 13 foot long, 14 foot long, and quite a chunky thing. I mean, you'll find that your little 9 foot still water rod will weigh 100 grams, 200 grams, whereas a big salmon rod, you know, that could weigh four times as much, even more. and you'll have a much bigger reel because you've got heavier line and more line and more backing. So the whole outfit, you need both hands to give you that momentum to punch that line out into a river. So the spay cast basically means that none of the line goes behind you. And without getting too technical, you're using the water in front of you to give you the same anchor point that you get as the line extends behind you in an overhead cast.

Sam Turner: So it's basically pulling it off the water. The force of pulling it off the water is the same as doing your, is the same as loading your rod with the back cast.

Avian Sandercock: Yeah. So it allows you to put line across a river without having 30 yards of line out behind you in the trees.

Jake Woolf: Makes sense?

Avian Sandercock: And again, it's just timing and technique. There's no. real strength to it, you should be able to, if you watch really good fly fishers, they don't seem to break a sweat. Whereas when I do it, I always end up with a bad shoulder because I'm trying to sort of heave it across the river and it doesn't work that way. But that's the sort of thing, if you get the hang of how a rod feels as you're overhead casting on a small trout lake, whilst it's very, very different to spey casting with a double handed rod, There are techniques, roll casting and things like that. You'll build up a feeling for when the rod loads and when it's time to release and it's going to be a really, really helpful way to get you started.

Jake Woolf: I mean, it's one of those where I've watched a lot of videos now. So A spay cast, would that look almost like a heart in the air?

Avian Sandercock: No, that's fancy casting. It looks like a D. It looks like a D. So basically the big problem with rivers over lakes is rivers are moving. So as your fly goes down, it ends up below you and you need to recast it sort of 45 degrees across the river. So the technique of the spay is basically to bring the line to you, to move it up river so the fly is clear of you and then load the rod by using the friction of the water and then pushing it forwards and it basically roll casts, it basically rolls out. So it's kind of a three stage or four stage cast.

Sam Turner: Why don't you always just cast downstream then?

Avian Sandercock: Well, because it swings in, if you imagine, if it lands 45 degrees across from you, it swings in and generally it'll come into the shallow water and you then need to reposition that fly back upstream to cover that area of water out in front of you again.

Jake Woolf: Upstream, downstream, chaps. Now, this is a newbie question. Can I cast any way?

Avian Sandercock: You will cast any way you think when you start.

Jake Woolf: But is there a rule of thumb that you can't go up or you can't go down? Or, you know, it should... What's my very simply, you know, rivet.

Sam Turner: I think if you're if you're trout single-handed, from my experience, you can go any way you want. Salmon, not sure. Avian.

Avian Sandercock: The salmon flies are very different to trout flies. They tend to be bigger, less representative of what fish might feed on and more sort of flashier and try and induce an aggressive response from the salmon. To fish them upstream, don't forget the river's coming towards you all the time. And basically you need to have not necessarily tension, but you need to have connection with the hook on the end, because if something takes it and it's all slack, you'll never know and you'll miss the fish. So to do that in a salmon river, you'll be casting out and then pulling it back, pulling it back, pulling it back. As we said earlier, Mr. Halford casting upstream to rising trout, that's kind of how you do it in a chalk stream. But you can also nim down. So this is where Trout fishing and salmon fishing you can't learn in a short podcast. It'll take you the rest of your life and probably the kids' life and your grandchildren's life to even unpeel the first layer of the onion. But I think... It's really a case of saying, how do we get you going and how do we get that excitement and that passion going in you to then work your way up to salmon fishing.

Jake Woolf: Yeah, chaps, this has been a really good insight and I do want to, I have got a question, a technical question about the reels, but we're muddling on here. So I am really keen on this. Where the hell can I go? Because I've got no idea. Is there a website I can look for? Do I need to speak to the local fishermen and just ask someone in the village. How do I get involved in this?

Avian Sandercock: If you go online and just Google trout lakes, all sorts of things will come up. Talk to your local tackle shop is a good idea if you have one.

Jake Woolf: But I do actually have a very good one in the market.

Avian Sandercock: Yeah, we do.

Jake Woolf: We do a lot.

Avian Sandercock: You'll find lots of small that the. They're known as muddy puddles or put and take lakes is perhaps the derogatory way of saying it. But you will doubtless have somewhere near you that's got a couple of acre lake and they stock trout in there.

Jake Woolf: I do, and you've all seen it in its private syndicate, the Branches Park Pond, but I wouldn't know how to get on it.

Avian Sandercock: You don't need to, Jake.

Jake Woolf: That is exactly what you describe it.

Avian Sandercock: There are lots of what are called day ticket waters where you can pay some money and generally they'll give you a limit of fish you can you're allowed to catch so you can catch two or four or as many as you can pay for. But a basic stock trout lake will cost you something like 30 quid, maybe 40 quid if you want to take 4 fish and some will offer catch release so you can get some guidance there. But I think your best bet is to ask around. Maybe have a look for a fishing guide, go and get some lessons just to get started.

Sam Turner: What's our time frame, Jake? When is your trip?

Avian Sandercock: Wait, it's in June 2027, so I'm just waiting for the exact date.

Sam Turner: I'm just thinking, so my first casting experience was at a game fair in that long pool thing they made-up, which was a brilliant way to just learn, you know, because at first Matey told me I was, it looked like I was trying to whip a horse. rather than actually cast a fly, which, and it's little pointers like that. And then I know a lot of people, I did it as well, just watching YouTube videos and things. There's a lot of that. I'm not knocking. I don't think you can beat going out with somebody who knows their stuff and showing you in person.

Jake Woolf: Now I had a great lesson the other day and it was 20 minutes and we were enjoying a chat and it was, I mean, watching. our good friend casting was effortless and it really, really was special. But I was like, how in the heck am I going to do that? But he's a long, way away from me. Can you get lessons? Could you just ring up someone and say, or do you just say someone in the pub, oh, you're fried fish and you stand in each other's garden?

Avian Sandercock: I think the problem is it's like all those things. Just because you are competent at something doesn't necessarily make you a good teacher. And I think you'll find most of the trout lakes will have somebody who will look after you and they'll do beginner sessions where you might get two or three of you together or like you said, get the whole family down, probably start on the lawn, move to the water. You'll probably do a lot of it without a hook on until you're comfortable with what you're doing. And then it's all about getting that confidence and.

Sam Turner: I think if you get on board with somebody who's a good teacher, you can tell them that this is how you need to start and this is what you've got booked for potentially June next year and that's where you want to be and they'll probably direct you in that way to try and get you there sooner.

Jake Woolf: I when I was casting back and forward and the noise that was cut as it was just coming past me, I was like, Oh, this is exciting.

Avian Sandercock: That's the problem. It shouldn't make a noise.

Sam Turner: No.

Avian Sandercock: If it's making a noise, you're doing it right. And as Sam said, if it cracks like a horse whip.

Sam Turner: It's brilliant fun, but it's not right.

Avian Sandercock: It's a bit of a mountain to climb, Jake, isn't it? Sorry, we sort of dropped all of this on.

Jake Woolf: It's a huge one. So, chaps. What have we learned, if anything, in this rambling term?

Sam Turner: I think we've learned go and speak to a professional if you're new to it, not us.

Avian Sandercock: Yeah.

Jake Woolf: I mean, it's honestly, it's been one of those where I have so many questions, and you guys are going to be answering a lot of them as well. But this is going to be one hell of a journey. And June next year, 2027, it's going to be an exciting, exciting.

Avian Sandercock: I mean, what I think Sam and I would love to see is that you feel confident when you go for your trip in Jean. And I think if you have a quick phone around, find somebody you seem to get on with. who does some lessons on a little trout lake. Go and get a feel for it. Most of them, if you don't want to buy the kit, I know you've had some given to you. Most of them will have a rod you can borrow for the day just to give it a try. Don't rush out and buy too many bits of equipment. Don't fill your cupboards with toot. Don't worry about flies. I've been given so much. Flies catch more fishermen than fish and just slowly get into it and I think enjoy it. Little Trout Lake's a great way to start because you've got pretty, it's tailor made to make the fishing straightforward. So you've got a known quantity of fish, you've got manicured lawns behind you or it's certainly a little more accessible and as you develop you can move up and a lot of people find that their passion is for stock trout in lakes, which is absolutely brilliant. Other people like going on the massive reservoirs in boats. Some people are lucky enough to go salmon sea trout fishing. But you know, within that.

Sam Turner: I've just been told that I, instead of going on the river where I am, I should be down at Axmouth, literally at the mouth of the harbour where it comes in with a fly rod down there doing seawater.

Avian Sandercock: So yeah, salt water fly is something I'd want to do more of this year. Right.

Jake Woolf: Let's reel this in. Chaps, thank you so much, yours so much. If there was one thing you could both give me as advice, what would that one thing be, Sam?

Sam Turner: Slow it down, because that was the piece of advice that I was given when I first started casting.

Jake Woolf: Excellent. Av, what about you?

Avian Sandercock: I would say start 30 years ago, but that's not fair. Don't try and do too much too quickly.

Jake Woolf: Fair. Thank you very much. I think that's wonderful. Right, let's land this.

Avian Sandercock: Get it in the boat.

Jake Woolf: Or on the bank. Not in your waders. Right, that's our stunt chats. You know what, if you're enjoying fishing game, chuck us a five star rating. It really does help. Give us a follow, share it with your mates who's been banging on about fishing or shooting. please e-mail us at hello@sidecountry.co.uk. We do actually read them. I promise, I promise we're right. Anyway, tight lines, hot barrels, and catch you next time because we're going to be talking about Partridge at the Priory. And it's going to be a very, very good little effort for you to smile there, Jake. Excellent. I've really enjoyed this. Thank you so much. You have taught me a lot. I felt like a listener to a.

Sam Turner: As long as we've enlisted some enthusiasm, that's all that we can do.

Jake Woolf: Yeah. Oh, I have bundles of that enthusiasm. It's quality I need. But chaps as ever, I'm bored of you. Ciao. Thank you very much. Wonderful.