This transcript was generated using AI and may contain minor errors.
Avian Sandercock: good evening, chaps. How are we all doing?
Jake Woolf: I've got no idea. Have you got an idea?
Avian Sandercock: What do you mean?
Jake Woolf: Have you got one idea?
Avian Sandercock: Oh, hang on a minute. Hang on a minute.
Jake Woolf: So I won't break into doe, a deer, a female deer.
Avian Sandercock: Oh, I think you should now.
Jake Woolf: You have to. A doe, a deer, a female deer. How are you, man? Good to see you.
Sam Turner: All the better for hearing you sing and die with audio remember?
Jake Woolf: So deer and deer management, I know all three of us have a bit of experience in deer and deer management, but we are extremely lucky that 1/3 of our team is a deer farmer. Sam, do you want to tell us a bit more about your experiences with deer?
Sam Turner: Good ones or bad ones?
Avian Sandercock: Oh, both, definitely.
Jake Woolf: Oh, yeah, bad ones. Go on, start with the bad ones.
Sam Turner: I've never had too many bad ones.
Jake Woolf: So they'd start with the good ones. Start with the good ones then.
Sam Turner: Can't think of any of those either. I think it was Niall Rancher who said, you always feel a little bit more special stood next to a stag than you do next to a cow. They are pretty special animals, aren't they?
Avian Sandercock: Yeah, I think so. I mean, which deer did you have?
Sam Turner: Reds.
Avian Sandercock: Oh, wow. So they're sort of big tasty horses, aren't they?
Sam Turner: Big tasty horses. The bigger the better. I guess that's the reason. I'm trying to think if anybody commercially farms fallow, you'd probably find they do in a way as in a parkland setting.
Jake Woolf: East Angia commercially farm. Yeah, because there's so many of them running around the place.
Avian Sandercock: It's like a commercial entity. Well, look guys, before we get into those details, Sam, what do deer mean to you? know, what's your earliest memory of deer or what's your big takeaway from having farmed them?
Sam Turner: I was in Scotland. I was, is it Glenateev? You know where the road goes down for the Skyfall? So I did that road and then somebody said that that's a really good place to go and see deer. And I got all the way down to the lock at the end and I saw some hinds across in the bushes and I thought I'm going to see how close I can get with a camera to take a photo. So I spent about an hour and a half trying to stalk in on these deer, you know, trying to stay so they didn't catch me in the wind. And I got closer and closer and closer to the point where I could almost touch them and realise these things were so bloody tame for the Tourists to go down there.
Avian Sandercock: And they've been fed twiglets by the tourists, and they.
Sam Turner: Have, yeah, so I wasn't quite the stalker I thought I was in that situation.
Jake Woolf: Hey, what about you, buddy? What's a dear to you?
Avian Sandercock: I'll tell you what, for me, I was thinking about this. The sort of earliest memory I have was back when I was growing up in Buckinghamshire and we were absolutely riddled with muntjac. We had one got caught in the sheep fencing. Dad got home from work and we traipsed that over to try and release it. They're only small. They're only sort of size of a spaniel or a Labrador. They're not very big things. But just the physicality of it, I remember as we tried to release it, just how strong the damn things were. And we managed to get it out and get it untangled and it just shot off. And it was just that memory of just how physical they are. And I guess since then got involved with deer a little bit more, but that was my first quite lucid memory of them. How about yourself?
Jake Woolf: Richmond Park as a young boy, mum would take us over to Richmond and drive us through the park just for a day trip to give us something to do because we couldn't really afford too much more than that. creatures, absolutely spellbound by them. I guess that old BBC Robin of Sherwood documentary in the documentary, you know what I mean, play on BBC. Clannard did the music, that mythical deer picture. And then as I've grown up, I'm spoiled with munk jack, fallow. I can remember though seeing my first row properly on a simulated deer stalk.
Avian Sandercock: Yeah.
Jake Woolf: It was, I just stood there with a row buck and it just looked at me and you were in a moment.
Avian Sandercock: I think that's the point, Jake, isn't it? That, these days you can see, I mean, Sam and I were driving up to Dorset the other day and there were just hundreds and hundreds and hundreds in a field. But quite often there is just that kind of magical thing where you sort of find them in unexpected places or you come across them or they bolt away. And I think what's interesting, just talking to the two of you guys there, is we've kind of covered three very different ways of seeing deer, haven't we? have. You know, I mean, Sam will come back to you in a minute how, you know, with the farm side of it, and that's more to do with the food line. You know, you've got those potentially, I don't think they're tame, are they? But they're quite habituated to people deer by the side of the road in Scotland. You know, I've got my panicked tiny little invasive muntjac deer. And then with you, Jake, you've got the classic Parkland deer that couldn't give a **** if you're there as long as you drop your konetto every now and again. So I think what would be really interesting, if we kind of, just very quickly for everybody listening, if we just run through, what are we, six major species in the UK?
Sam Turner: Six, yeah. Two native, 4 non-native.
Avian Sandercock: You know, a very broad overview of a bit of history about them. how long they've been here, if they've been introduced, what they look like, and where people might find them. So, Sam, we're going to be leaning on you a lot today, me on fruit, I'm afraid. You are our resident deer expert.
Sam Turner: We use that term loosely.
Avian Sandercock: Kick us off. What are the two? You said there were two native species.
Sam Turner: Yeah, so we got, obviously, we got red and roe over here, red being the biggest of the six.
Avian Sandercock: Red is your Monica, the Glen.
Sam Turner: Red is your Monica, the Glen, the classic stag, the one that all the pictures of all the whiskey bottles. Yeah, that's it. It's the, I don't know, right word.
Avian Sandercock: Pick one. We'll make one up.
Sam Turner: Figurehead.
Avian Sandercock: Yep.
Sam Turner: It's the figurehead of the UK deer.
Avian Sandercock: King of the deer.
Sam Turner: King of the deer. Absolutely fascinating creatures.
Avian Sandercock: Yes. And they are, some of them are as big as a horse, aren't they?
Sam Turner: Oh yeah.
Jake Woolf: And the ones which are over in East Anglia, they are as heavy as cows or horses. You know, you need a JCB to get them out if you take one of those down when you manage them.
Sam Turner: And they're incredibly strong and they are. We've spoken about And it's one thing that you learn from deer farming is even though they are farmed animals, they haven't been farmed for long enough like cattle. You've got that wild bit out of them. So you would still have, a month of the year where you don't want to disturb the hinds because they've just got calves. And you've also got, a month of the year when you don't want to go in with any of your stags because you could feed them an apple out your hand one day and then the other day they like, I don't know, rip the front off your truck because they're pretty angry about something. So they're incredibly strong. Right. What's the range of them?
Avian Sandercock: Are they sort of all over the UK or?
Sam Turner: I think they do cover most of the UK, don't they?
Jake Woolf: Certainly they certainly are in East Anglia.
Avian Sandercock: Yeah, we definitely call Exmoor's famous for very big stags as well. Not so much Wales, I think. Is that right?
Sam Turner: No, I don't get involved with the Welsh very much. I don't know.
Avian Sandercock: Don't tell Prido he'll be after you. His new compadres.
Jake Woolf: So we've got Reds and then which I think it's Rose, the other the other native.
Sam Turner: And one thing I find most, we've got loads of wild roe around where I am, and I think we've got loads most of the most of the country. The thing I find most fascinating about roe is the delayed implantation of that basically. Can you give us a bit on that? Yeah, they basically just hold the eggs fertilised right after mating, and then the embryo kind of goes dormant.
Avian Sandercock: That's right, because they the mating season sort of. mid-summer is now to August, classically. And then they'll wait out the winter and have the babies in early spring when they end the winter, early spring.
Sam Turner: It'll technically be ready, what, January? It just lays dormant till then. And then it implants in the uterus and it develops regularly so that then it's coming out mid-May, mid-June, which is obviously a lot nicer time to be born if you're out in the wild.
Jake Woolf: So I'm going to attempt to be a bit nerdy here. When I was at university, I studied equine breeding and stud management. Our lecturer, she gave me a title one day to write a assignment on our spermatozoa alive, full stop. My goodness me, I had no idea how to answer this. And I wish I'd known about how the roe deer reproduce because if you can hold a conceptus, which has been fertilised and it's not developing and it shuts everything down. When I first heard about this, I was like, why didn't I, I was talking about bulls and semen and horses and everything like that.
Avian Sandercock: I'm very glad we went that way because I thought you were just about to confess to mass murder.
Jake Woolf: But it is so, isn't nature incredible?
Avian Sandercock: Yes.
Sam Turner: Because you would have thought, and I, because I think they're unique in that, because I would imagine most other species would basically change the breeding.
Avian Sandercock: Yeah, absolutely. I suppose, it's all strategies depending on where they are and what the habitat is. And, I mean, the row, although it's now all over the UK, I mean, I think it didn't it nearly go extinct in like the 16 to 1800s had to be slowly reintroduced.
Sam Turner: Yeah.
Jake Woolf: But due to over hunting.
Avian Sandercock: Yeah, I think they were just hunted to near extinction in the British Isles. and were brought back in again. So, I guess they're more traditionally seen as sort of woodland and lowland deer, aren't they? So they might be a bit more susceptible to a harsh winter. That means they sort of cross their legs and hang on a bit if it's not looking optimal. So I mean, those are our two natives. What are the four non-natives and how did that come about?
Sam Turner: So Fallow were, I think Fallow were introduced by the Romans, weren't they? So they were probably the longest standing of our four.
Avian Sandercock: They're like pheasants, weren't they? Because they were introduced by the Romans and then they kind of fizzled out after several 100 years and then good old Willy the Conch brought them back again, didn't he?
Sam Turner: Yeah. Willy the Conch.
Avian Sandercock: Willy the Conch.
Jake Woolf: I mean, that's a feral.
Avian Sandercock: 1066 and all that.
Jake Woolf: Yeah, 1066. But if they've been here that long, are they not just native now?
Avian Sandercock: I think that's a brilliant question, mate. And I think that kind of question is, how long is a piece of string? How long does something have to have been here to be seen as native and when is it introduced? So yeah, I mean, goes to pheasants, goes to, as we were saying last week, potentially to red-legged partridge as well.
Jake Woolf: Yeah.
Avian Sandercock: Interesting one, isn't it?
Jake Woolf: Yeah, definitely. So they've been here a long time. What about the next one, Samuel? There's Seeker, isn't there?
Sam Turner: Now I've not seen Seeker would have those or looked 19th century. And I've never seen Seeker in the wild. So I would have Seeker slightly further east than me into Dorset. I've never seen one. They are, they're woodland hiding creatures.
Avian Sandercock: They're Japanese, aren't they?
Sam Turner: Are they?
Avian Sandercock: I think the first pair came from Japan because I think these These last three, they're very much, they were brought in as ornamental Parkland deer. And because we're obviously not very good at fences, they've all escaped over the years. But I think the very first family group, there was a stag and a few does were brought into an estate in Ireland.
Jake Woolf: Oh, really? Was that what it was?
Avian Sandercock: Viscount Powers Court, yeah, because I think by the middle of the 1800s, having a deer park was a bit like having a fleet of Ferraris now. It was the height of showing off. And the bigger and more reverse your deer park and to have the rarest species of deer and what have you was really, that was *** **** swinging, wasn't it?
Sam Turner: Oh yeah, and they didn't like fences either, did they? So you used to have, is it a ha ha that you have out in front of your stately home?
Avian Sandercock: So you couldn't see the staff.
Sam Turner: I thought it was so you couldn't see the fence that kept the deer.
Avian Sandercock: Nothing interrupted the view up to the folly, yes.
Jake Woolf: Avian doesn't like seeing his stuff, so...
Avian Sandercock: Absolutely not. That's why I don't have any.
Sam Turner: Infinity pool, wouldn't it?
Avian Sandercock: No, that's just because the system's overflowing.
Jake Woolf: Go on, Sam, carry on. I don't even know where we were. I tell you, so we've spoken about the seeker, the fallow, but There are two more which are very, very common around here now. Chinese water deer and the muntjac.
Avian Sandercock: I mean, the Chinese water, again, these were, I think, Woburn Park, Duke of Bedford brought these in as a novelty.
Jake Woolf: Yeah, a Woburn there.
Avian Sandercock: I mean, the Chinese water deer, they are pretty much restricted to your neck of the woods around Suffolk and Norfolk and around there. They spread a little bit, but they're quite habitat specific, aren't they? like living in the long reeds and, you know, as the name suggests, they like being near water. there's any about, they estimate about 10,000 of them in the UK, but I suppose it's the other one, the little dog size one that I found stuck in the railway fencing, the muntjac.
Sam Turner: The one that breeds like a rabbit.
Avian Sandercock: Breeds all year, don't they?
Jake Woolf: Non-stop and littering the A11 from Norwich all the way to Cambridge. And it amazes me how they just stand there at the side of the road and they are not bothered at all. not bothered, but they're quite elusive when you want to stalk them, aren't they?
Avian Sandercock: Yes.
Jake Woolf: They're a little bit different then, aren't they? You know, they kind of had their grounds and...
Avian Sandercock: Now, dare we say these are toothy deer or barky deer?
Jake Woolf: Like the sucky fish?
Sam Turner: Are they toothy deer or are they tusky deer? Oh yeah.
Avian Sandercock: Or toothy or tusky, yes.
Jake Woolf: So the Chinese water deer are definitely toothy deer. Is that just some males or is that the females as well?
Avian Sandercock: I think it's both. They do look like. Empire teddy bears, don't they?
Sam Turner: Yeah.
Avian Sandercock: They have these sort of fangs that hang down, but their faces are like little button-eyed teddy bears.
Jake Woolf: Do you boys know, and I don't, you might not, why do they have them? They're not saber-toothed deer, are they? What's their purpose? Do they rip through the soil?
Sam Turner: And they can't never us at any point.
Avian Sandercock: Definitely not bitey deer. No, I think it's all sexual display. The males will fight and they can be. I think they tend to tear the ears off each other quite a lot. the tusks are used as sort of an ageing device. They can tell how old they are and I guess there's a bit of dominance. But yeah, broadly speaking, I'm not sure.
Jake Woolf: Fair. Now, I made a mistake. I called them all bucks and they're all stags.
Avian Sandercock: Yeah.
Jake Woolf: Help me out here, chaps, and help the listener out here. What's A buck, what's a stag?
Avian Sandercock: Depends on the species and I think also a little bit where you are in the country.
Jake Woolf: Because I.
Avian Sandercock: Mean, especially for the red deer, the Scottish have an awful lot of specific names for particular ages of stags. And I mean, Sam, help me out here. Rose, red are stag and hind.
Sam Turner: And a calf.
Avian Sandercock: And a calf, yeah.
Sam Turner: For their young. Roe is a buck and a doe and a fawn. Seeker are.
Avian Sandercock: I think they're stag and. I don't think it's hind, is it?
Sam Turner: It's not. This is like a really...
Avian Sandercock: I'll tell you what, we'll do a little quiz later as well. I've got some terrible questions for you. You'll never get those right. Yeah.
Jake Woolf: Right, eyes down.
Avian Sandercock: No time to do any homework. Fallow. Same road buttons.
Jake Woolf: Yeah, what's a cricket?
Avian Sandercock: A year-old male.
Jake Woolf: That's it. But there's nothing to do for a young female, is there?
Avian Sandercock: Don't you burst into song again.
Sam Turner: No, I bet you might call it a cricket or you might call it a spiker.
Jake Woolf: There we go. Yes.
Avian Sandercock: Isn't that an electric car? No, we're going off topic.
Jake Woolf: No, bring it back. Bring it back.
Avian Sandercock: So I mean, kind of a bit of a broad, random stab at what the deer are and what we call them. But I mean, you guys, Jake, you've already said you've got Chinese water deer, your neck of the woods.
Jake Woolf: They haven't quite made it to us. We've got munties and fallow, but Chinese water deer.
Avian Sandercock: Are they a little further north?
Jake Woolf: They're knocking on the doorstep. You've probably got to drive 10, 15 miles towards Cambridgeshire and out to the fence. They're heavily embedded in the fence. and a good friend of ours, who's an avid stalker, said, I'm making sure that none of them get to you because they taste lovely.
Avian Sandercock: We'll come on to taste it a bit.
Jake Woolf: Absolutely. So, but we're full of Roe, Munk Jack and Fallow and transient Reds.
Avian Sandercock: OK. Sam, I mean, you and I are relatively close, but with a few differences.
Sam Turner: So, I mean, if we look at Devon, it's depending on where you are, obviously, but Red, Roe, Fallow.
Avian Sandercock: Yeah.
Sam Turner: I have. I could have sworn I saw a dead muntjac on the side of the A30 near Honiton once.
Avian Sandercock: I think you're right. There are fairly consistent sightings of them around Plymouth.
Jake Woolf: Do you not have muntjac with you guys?
Avian Sandercock: Not yet.
Sam Turner: I do not, no.
Avian Sandercock: I think there are pockets indicated, but they're not everywhere yet. But you know, they're marching on down. I mean, we're the same down in Cornwall, Reds Row, Fallow, possible muntjac. I don't think there's any seeker down here yet. But where we were in Dorset, There's a lot of seeker in Dorset now, aren't there?
Sam Turner: Yeah. And we also go, so we get melanistic fallow as well, which are the black fallow.
Avian Sandercock: Yes. And the white, the white hearts, which aren't albino, are they?
Jake Woolf: No, they're not.
Avian Sandercock: They're the leucistic, I think is the. Yeah, that's it for them.
Jake Woolf: With the melanistic and what have you, it's really interesting speaking because they're a genetic throwback. They're non-common, aren't they? So I know some stalkers around here will target the melanistic to manage their herds, to keep them common. So you have the lovely white spot dappled through their coats. They like to manage their herds by keeping those melanistic out.
Avian Sandercock: That's interesting.
Jake Woolf: But that's a personal choice.
Avian Sandercock: I think that comes on to, you know, where I want to go next, which is very much deer management.
Jake Woolf: And I think before, can I just, can I just interrupt you? I am going to all our listeners for some support, because quite frankly, we need you all to subscribe on the pod platform of your choice. Give us a five-star rating, leave us a comment. And you know what? Actually send this episode to a friend. It would really help for us to be heard by other people. Back to you, Ave.
Avian Sandercock: Yeah, it was just looking at, you know, the deer numbers. You hear in the press quite a lot that we've got a massive problem with deer. And I think Looking at the stats, the numbers now are the highest they've been pretty much since anyone even thought about deer. And back to 1066, William the Conqueror, basically, he didn't conquer Britain to rule them. He conquered them to have a bigger hunting park. And he introduced the fallow to hunt and the pheasant to hunt. unfortunately, our current view of a forest of this wonderfully wild, dense group of trees was actually the king's hunting ground was the literal translation. But even back in those days where, you know, to take one of the king's deer would get you beheaded, the numbers then slumped down into the sort of the 1900s. But I guess since the 50s, 60s, they have just shot up. And with the introduction of the non-natives, you know, they reckon we're currently, what, million and a half, 2 million deer. Two million. I mean, how you'd accurately count them, I'm not sure, but they're everywhere and they're becoming like the foxes, a lot more urbanized, they're damaging forestry, they're damaging all these trees we keep planting. You know, I think we've all seen driving down the road, you've got a complete forest of plastic tubes, which seems a bit counterintuitive, but without those, They'd just eat the trees straight away, wouldn't they?
Sam Turner: And actually, can I have a bit of a rant at Highways? I'm going to blame Highways Agency for it. They've recently duelled a bit of the 303. And what they've done on the banks either side is plant some nice short grass and lots of young trees.
Avian Sandercock: Like a deer buffet, isn't it?
Sam Turner: Is. And then they go, oh, there seems to be a lot of... I wonder why that is?
Jake Woolf: Well.
Avian Sandercock: Because I reckon there's a crash with a deer or involving a deer every sort of 15 minutes in the UK at the moment.
Jake Woolf: It's a problem. And where they built the new A14, I counted, I lost, I stopped counting. 30 plus dead carcasses. It is a problem.
Avian Sandercock: It's becoming a major problem. I think, not just for people on the road. I mean, crikey, if you're driving down at dusk and you run into even a roe deer, it could cause a major accident. If nothing else, it's going to cause some serious damage to your car. And, you know, people can get hurt and people lose their lives.
Sam Turner: Well, it's also the fact that a deer quite often doesn't die straight away, doesn't it?
Jake Woolf: And it's not a pleasant death for them either. Laura was coming home from the field, took out a couple of fallow, because where there's one, there's two, and where there's two, there's a few. We had to call the local gamekeeper. I wasn't picking up my phone for whatever reason. I couldn't get signal.
Avian Sandercock: Are you sulking? No, You weren't allowed to go into any more fishing auctions, so you sulked.
Jake Woolf: Look, you've benefited from that. Let me bid.
Avian Sandercock: I bloody have, mate. Can't wait. And all of that, I mean, I don't want to dwell on that because I think that would be a brilliant topic to come back to. It's like, you know, all the laws surrounding deer are quite A lot of them are very old-fashioned. Some of them are ancient and they're quite convoluted. A lot of it is against common sense. I mean, there was that case in the paper recently where the guy wanted to pick up that deer carcass to take home and eat and ended up in trouble with the police. And it's that weird thing that whilst they're alive, they don't belong to anybody. But as soon as they're dead, they belong to the person who's landed on, which is highways. But let's not get lost in that. But it kind of leads us into, I'd like to get your thoughts on why there are so many? Why have we seen this massive increase? And then sort of flip it and say, what can we do to keep the numbers healthy? Because the big problem is, as they've seen in a few experiments, there was one down here where they let the fence in, let the deer go wild and they will starve to death. And then there was that terrible case in Holland where they had... 30,000 hectares that all the wild animals would live in this sort of Eden-like perfection and they had to sort of hoist bales of hay over the fence to keep them alive. So at some point from the health of the deer as a species or multiple species from... protection of the crops and the forestry and protection of people's gardens and safety on the roads, the numbers need managing. But what are our thoughts? Why are there so bloody many of them?
Sam Turner: I mean, more recently, COVID had a big impact when people couldn't challenge it.
Jake Woolf: Just, if you don't mind, can I challenge that? Because we were only locked in for six months, right? That's one breeding cycle. Where did, and I hear this around here all the time, oh, it's COVID, COVID, that's why the deer are so bad. And I'm like, Good man. So sorry.
Sam Turner: I wasn't going to finish at COVID.
Avian Sandercock: It's been going on since way before that. I mean, since the 80s, this explosion has happened. If you look at the population graphs, they're sort of trundling along, trundling along, and then it literally, like Nvidia stopped, went through the bloody roof.
Sam Turner: Well, and the trouble is, I might alienate myself. I think there are probably people. I can say this mostly happens in Cornwall. No, it doesn't really. I think there's probably a lot of people sitting on sporting rights covering a lot of land. Well said. That don't go out and manage.
Avian Sandercock: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. It's that patch where there's no cohesive plan. It's some do and some don't.
Sam Turner: You could have somebody next door who is doing a really good job of managing it and then what you'll find is the deer go And we don't like that. We seem to be dropping in numbers. We'll go over that.
Avian Sandercock: I mean, to Jake's point, the other one I really want to sort of cut the knees off is all this nonsense about they don't have an apex predator. But when you look at it and say, well, the last wolf was shot in 1680. And the last lynx was estimated at being here in 580 AD. I think we can take Apex Predator out to the situation because we're looking from 1980 onwards. So, you know, that story has got nothing to do with it. You know, it's a multiple different things have caused it. And I think you're right, Sam, is that because the deer act was in, I think, 1963, wasn't it, which changed the introduced the hunting seasons and changed all the rules. I think from a farming point of view, We're starting to grow far more high protein and high food content crops through the winter with winter wheat and winter kales and late harvest maize and oil seed rape, things like that. But I think also the deer are getting habituated and they're eating out of gardens and they're not tame, but they. are losing their fear of people and they're sort of becoming peri-urban, a bit like urban foxes eating out of bins. They're finding other ways to go.
Jake Woolf: Are you seeing that down there, Aif? Because we're not seeing it round here. We have a real problem with fallow amunties, but they know where to keep away from. They don't like dogs. They're not even fan of cats. So I've not seen them getting involved in, let's say, Newmarket, where I'm rural and kind of urban and I've got a clear line.
Avian Sandercock: If you go a bit further south down into Essex around Romford, you know, they've We've got multiple 100 herds of fallow wandering around housing estates.
Jake Woolf: Yeah, I mean, that's interesting. I've not seen that. And I guess the rolling kind of hills of Essex.
Avian Sandercock: The leafy glades of Essex Shire.
Jake Woolf: But when you see those mega herds of 300 plus fallow?
Avian Sandercock: Yeah.
Jake Woolf: But yeah, it's an interesting one. Can I bring it a bit closer and the changing in farming policy of larger fields and the ripping up of hedgerows allowing, you make a great point, Ave, of the winter wheat and the winter crops and coming in, that type of thing. You were giving them a lot more food source, but also a lot more room to move.
Avian Sandercock: Yes. And also we're not fencing in the same way, are we?
Jake Woolf: Quite. It's kind of natural fencing.
Avian Sandercock: Definitely. I think as Sam said, you know, if they're feeling a bit of pressure from either disturbance or culling or shooting or other activities in one area, they can melt away. And I think, you know, the national tree planting since the 70s, 80s has provided these corridors for them to disappear. And, you know, I think we've all, you could see a deer in a field, but going and trying to find one in a forest is almost impossible, isn't it? If they don't to be found.
Jake Woolf: Oh, you won't.
Avian Sandercock: They melt them.
Jake Woolf: They do melt away. But how is it different in, let's say, the Highlands to, let's say, me? I would probably be relatively lowlands. You know, how does that balance? Because, you know, we've been.
Avian Sandercock: Relatively lowlands, you're in billiard table country. There's nowhere for it.
Sam Turner: I was just tearing up.
Avian Sandercock: Go on. I think the worst business idea in the world is opening a toboggan shop anywhere near Newmark, isn't it?
Jake Woolf: I don't know. We've got Warren Hill. Go on. Yeah, so what's the difference between them?
Sam Turner: I think populations are probably managed a lot better in the highlands than they are in the lowlands because you have that, you're combining management with sporting. Yes, there's money in it. So you're providing A sporting experience, which is also then providing the management in return and funding the management that you do away from the sporting side. So your whole thing's going to be towards having the best possible deer on that ground. And to have the best possible deer, you need to have the stocking right. And to have the stocking right, you need to know your numbers. So it kind of just keeps going full circle.
Avian Sandercock: And it goes back to Jake's point about managing a herd, doesn't it? And I guess, I don't know, Jake, what do you think? Because I guess with the sporting, you tend to traditionally a big stag is the one they all want. Does that skew it? I mean, Sam, from your farming experience, you're picking animals to freed from and produce a commercial herd. Does it skew it the other way if you try and get too many big stags?
Sam Turner: The trouble is you're not going to end up with the big stags if you don't have the number of, you know, if you don't control the number of hinds.
Avian Sandercock: Right, yes.
Sam Turner: Because you're just going to be overpopulated with hinds. And I think there's a lot, you see a lot more opportunities probably now than you did maybe even 10 years ago in the Highlands. Cheaper opportunities, obviously. to go and do Cole Heinz, because you've still got the experience of going out and stalking a red on the hill, which in itself, I think, is one thing amazing.
Avian Sandercock: You just don't have that, don't.
Sam Turner: No, don't start. I'll tell you in a minute.
Avian Sandercock: Go on, carry on.
Sam Turner: You obviously just don't have, you know, you've got a load of meat you can take home, but you don't have that same set of antlers you can put on your walls. Yes.
Avian Sandercock: And I guess if you're managing for population, you want to take the females out.
Jake Woolf: Yes.
Avian Sandercock: Because if you're just taking the males, you know, it's sporting versus. Yeah, sporting versus.
Jake Woolf: This is kind of management. Like, but that's what I'm saying.
Sam Turner: I think in the Highlands, the two work hand in hand.
Jake Woolf: Interesting.
Sam Turner: Whereas I think when you come down to lowland stalking, and it'll go back to what I said just a minute ago, there's probably somebody sitting on 3,000 acres of sporting lights who A doesn't go out and manage and B could, if he or she did, could potentially make a little bit of revenue from taking other people out and doing that.
Jake Woolf: I actually have a big issue with that. And that management of managing my pocket over managing the actual herd within that area. I think it's a big thing and it's happening more.
Sam Turner: But I think, but I think there are, and don't get me wrong, there's a lot of guys, lowland guys, that are doing the same thing. You look at what Paul Childley's doing, people like that is, you know, you look at them because they're in the public eye or in the media a bit more, I suppose, but they're doing a fantastic job of a managing the numbers, you know, they're not wiping them all out because that's of no business interest to them. but they're keeping on top of numbers so they're not an issue for local farms, they're not an issue for local roads and local tree planting, but they're also creating revenue out of it and then producing something that's going back into the market.
Jake Woolf: So you talk about revenue, buddy. What is the value on venison? I'm very lucky. I have an abundance of venison in my freezer. But where is the value in it? I see it in supermarkets and it's so highly priced. I buy a carcass to deal with myself. I do the butchery, I do my own steaks. At home, I mint.
Avian Sandercock: We've heard you mint.
Jake Woolf: And then it costs 60 pounds. I do, darling. Behave yourself. But and I buy that from the local stalker. why is it that it's 20 pound a kilo in Waitrose, but I can buy a whole carcass of fallow for 60 pounds?
Sam Turner: So I think we're going to see a big shift in this now. So the reason it would be expensive in Waitrose, let's say for example, is because it is probably a farmed deer.
Avian Sandercock: Yeah, right.
Sam Turner: So there are certain supermarkets that will want to know full traceability in order to put that product on their shelves. So they won't buy a carcass from a wild stalked animal. because they don't know what it's eaten. They don't know where it's been. They don't know if it's been into a crop that's been sprayed. They don't know the history of that. So they wanted to buy stuff with full traceability, which was actually something that I was involved in when I first started farming deer. I'm seeing an increase in route to market for wild deer, which is a good thing, which is why I'm reducing numbers of farm deer that I do. Because the price I need for a farm deer is much more than the price a stalker needs for a wild deer. I do think that standards that people have to do are getting higher, but I also think that those standards are now being more recognised, which is the most important thing. It all adds to it. And I think there is a amongst stalkers, game shooters, there is this kind of inherent thing where we all want to be better at what we do.
Avian Sandercock: Couldn't agree more with that.
Sam Turner: I don't think there are people out there that are cutting corners and it's going to be the odd one, but the majority of people want to do better, want to produce a better product. So we're kind of, we self-regulate in that way, that we're always improving. And I think that's being recognised, which is allowing more route to market for wild animals, which is great.
Avian Sandercock: And I think more and more people who are taking wild animals want the pleasure of sharing it or seeing it go into the food chain, aren't they? Which brings me clumsily onto what's your favourite recipe? Come on, sell us some venison.
Sam Turner: I'd always sell venison to people by saying, do everything really simple. So just instead of using beef mince for your bolognese or your lasagna or your cottage pie, use venison mince. Stews are a great one because you, know, obviously venison is very low in fat. It doesn't dry out in a stew. It's easy to do a stew. My favourite one to do though is a red fillet as a Wellington.
Avian Sandercock: Brilliant. Because you have a lot of red meat you can treat as the same as you would beef pretty much, can't you?
Jake Woolf: Yeah, basically.
Avian Sandercock: What about you, Jakey? You're a bit of a braai man. What's your favourite?
Jake Woolf: A quick steak over coals. You can't go wrong. Cook it very similar to steak.
Avian Sandercock: Brilliant.
Jake Woolf: But I do like a bit of pulled venison on eleventies in a Yorkshire pudding in a large BBQ sauce. Spin that up, drop it in. Anyone that's coming with me this year may just get some opportunity to try it because it'd be a new recipe. However, it works really well, really easy to do, slow cooker it. You can put a haunch, you can put a shoulder in, go and look it up because it's really easy, great for 11s.
Avian Sandercock: And also look for British venison. Don't buy any of that imported muck.
Jake Woolf: You should just speak to your local gamekeeper and any of your local stalkers.
Avian Sandercock: Or even your local butcher if you shall.
Jake Woolf: Absolutely. You really do.
Avian Sandercock: You know I'm sort of a pedestrian chef at best, although I'm trying to get better. I like a good venison burger, but... I thought I'd recommend a few bits of booze to go with it. So I reckon a bold red, a Barolo or a Pinot Noir, something like that. Strong ales, some Belgian beers or a porter, something like that. Or something that's brilliant, they do a lot in Scotland on the Western Isles, is a smoky whisky. If you just a sipping whisky to go with it, a nice smoky whisky will offset that. brilliantly. So that's what I'd go for. Right, on that basis, I'm now going to put you in for this quiz. Go on. So I'll scratch together some ideas. So dear term or medieval insult? Are you ready?
Jake Woolf: Go on.
Avian Sandercock: I've got 10 questions.
Jake Woolf: Oh, crikey.
Avian Sandercock: No conferring. We'll rattle through them. And there is a tiebreaker at the end. So I'll ask you both. And I want dear term or medieval insult as your answer. And I'll try and keep score here. So we'll start off with Jake. Cricket.
Jake Woolf: Deer term.
Avian Sandercock: Sam.
Sam Turner: Deer term.
Avian Sandercock: Right.
Sam Turner: Are any of these both?
Avian Sandercock: Well, that would be giving half the fun away, wouldn't it?
Jake Woolf: Game, let's go.
Avian Sandercock: Number 2, Jake. Dolt.
Jake Woolf: Medieval slur.
Avian Sandercock: Sam.
Sam Turner: I'm going to go medieval slur too.
Avian Sandercock: Okay, question #3, rocket. Jake.
Jake Woolf: I'll go medieval insult. Okay.
Avian Sandercock: Sam. I'm.
Sam Turner: Going to say it's a strange Scottish term for deer that I've never heard before, purely to try and differentiate.
Avian Sandercock: We have a difference of opinion. That's interesting. All right. Four. Moon calf.
Jake Woolf: I'm going to go deer term.
Avian Sandercock: Sam.
Sam Turner: Deer.
Avian Sandercock: Like it. Okay. Question #5, halfway through. Jake Speyard.
Jake Woolf: Medieval insults. It sounds yeah, slightly Spanish and yeah, aggressive. So yeah.
Avian Sandercock: Like you're thinking. Sam.
Sam Turner: Can you spell it for me, please?
Jake Woolf: Oh, dyslexic. Right, come on.
Avian Sandercock: S-P-A-Y-A-R-D is 1 spelling. Espayard. Espayard.
Jake Woolf: Medieval.
Avian Sandercock: A medieval. All right, question #6. Jake, you chill.
Jake Woolf: Oh, medieval insult.
Avian Sandercock: Sam.
Sam Turner: I don't know, I'm going to say deer.
Avian Sandercock: Deer term, brilliant. Right, question #7. Knobber. Jake.
Jake Woolf: That's you.
Avian Sandercock: That's me, yes. But am I a medieval deer?
Jake Woolf: I'm going to go a knobber is a West Country term for deer. For deer.
Avian Sandercock: Righty-ho, Samuel.
Sam Turner: I'm going to say that's a medieval insult.
Avian Sandercock: Good man. Right, Jake, question #8. We're nearly there. Come on. A violet.
Jake Woolf: I'm going to go deer again.
Avian Sandercock: Sam.
Sam Turner: Medieval.
Avian Sandercock: Medieval, right. Okay, question #9. We're bringing it round the final bend. Sorrel, Jake.
Jake Woolf: Sorrel, sorrel, deer. Medieval insult.
Avian Sandercock: And Sam?
Sam Turner: That is a deer.
Avian Sandercock: That is a deer. Confidence. Confidence there.
Jake Woolf: You're very confident there, buddy. Yeah, right.
Avian Sandercock: And the last question. Last question. Clot pole. Jake.
Jake Woolf: I've been called this, I'm sure.
Avian Sandercock: You're all a bit medieval out your way, aren't you?
Jake Woolf: Yeah, so, yeah, it's got to be a medieval insult.
Avian Sandercock: Good man. Sam.
Sam Turner: Yeah, no, I'm going to go medieval with that one too.
Avian Sandercock: Brilliant, right. By the magic of editing, I will do a quick counter.
Jake Woolf: Do we have to turn this podcast upside down so we can read the answers?
Sam Turner: Before Avian does his, brings to light how little me and Jake know about A, deer and B, the medieval times. If you want to know more facts about deer, I would strongly recommend the BDS, the British Deer Society. Well done.
Jake Woolf: Because they are brilliant, aren't they?
Sam Turner: Seasons, loads of details on their website about deer if you want to get more involved.
Jake Woolf: Nice one. You still working there, all mate?
Avian Sandercock: Yeah, talk amongst yourselves for a minute.
Jake Woolf: I will edit this out. I'm going to trail in our next episode because our next episode next week will be what did the Gentleman series get right or wrong? So tune in next week and we will be discussing all about the Netflix series, The Gentleman. Sam, have you seen it?
Sam Turner: I have and I obviously we need to get everybody else who's going to listen next week to watch it before the episode comes out because otherwise we're going to ruin it for them.
Jake Woolf: I need to watch it. I'm not allowed to watch it until we finish watching Rivals. Spoiler alert. We will say now spoiler alert. So how are you getting on there?
Avian Sandercock: Nearly there, nearly there, nearly there. Talk amongst yourselves. The scores are in, boys and girls.
Jake Woolf: Right, do you want to upset Sam and tell him I won?
Avian Sandercock: No, you're lost, mate. Scores were Jake 5 out of 10, Sam 6 out of 10. So Sam gets the first trophy. I'm going to do the tie breaker anyway because you are both rascals. So what is rascal, dear or medieval?
Jake Woolf: I'm going to go with dear.
Avian Sandercock: Sam.
Sam Turner: I'm going to go with medieval just to consider that we don't have another tie breaker.
Avian Sandercock: Yeah, you're both wrong. It's both. There you go. And I think what we'll try and do is put all the answers and the backing to that in the show notes. So now we've trailed next week about the gentleman. Looking forward to that one. I think that's us done, boys, isn't it? Yeah, I think it is. So if you're enjoying the Fish and Game podcast, Chuck has a five-star rating. It really, really does help us. Give us a follow, share it with you, mate. And if you've got a story to tell, want to get in touch, have a rant or just fancy having a natter with us, please do e-mail us at hello at sidecountry.co.uk. We will read them and who knows, you might get it read out on a future episode. That's it. Hope you enjoyed it and we'll see you on the next one.